WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:21.520 This is not as much as I talk about drowning, because it is a talk about the problem that 00:21.520 --> 00:29.360 we have been trying to solve for about three years, but we don't want to do that. 00:29.360 --> 00:35.040 So drowning is moderation, but for matrix, right? 00:35.040 --> 00:41.880 So for most people, when they join matrix and they suffer and whatever, they're just going 00:41.880 --> 00:45.840 to see matrix as the way that they see their claim. 00:45.840 --> 00:52.840 And so what I want you to imagine to begin with is just a standard room with some people 00:52.840 --> 00:59.680 talking in it, and then eventually someone's going to send the most shady looking link 00:59.680 --> 01:03.960 possible, and yeah, that's not good. 01:03.960 --> 01:10.080 So the key thing here, right, is that we've got this guy called Bob that's joining 01:10.080 --> 01:15.080 the room, and he's sending this link to everyone else. 01:15.080 --> 01:22.080 So what I want you to think about is the perspective that the room moderates ours and 01:22.080 --> 01:29.880 all the participants, you know, what they're perspective is of that interaction. 01:29.880 --> 01:37.640 So just remember this for now, the naive understanding is that Bob is sending this shady 01:37.640 --> 01:43.400 link to everyone in the room. 01:43.400 --> 01:52.400 Now, if we want to stop Bob doing that, right, why is the show me out, does anybody have 01:52.400 --> 01:54.400 any ideas, how we can do that? 01:54.400 --> 01:56.400 Anybody want this? 01:56.400 --> 01:58.400 The show? 01:58.400 --> 01:59.400 Come on. 01:59.400 --> 02:02.680 Well, yeah, okay. 02:02.680 --> 02:11.400 So the reality is, is that matrix is a decentralized system, so rather than the show, really 02:11.400 --> 02:17.000 there being just one thing where all the messages will be one place, it's actually replicated 02:17.000 --> 02:21.480 across every single participant serving the room. 02:21.480 --> 02:29.760 So while one you two imagine now is the each participant in this room has their own copy 02:29.760 --> 02:33.400 of the messages if you like. 02:33.400 --> 02:38.440 So on the diagram, we've got three different servers, and they've replicated each message 02:38.440 --> 02:39.440 each. 02:39.440 --> 02:44.080 So that's great. 02:44.080 --> 02:50.840 What that means is that, you know, if one of the servers drops out, or even the people who 02:50.840 --> 02:58.120 are running the room, leave or worry, the server died, the conversation could keep going. 02:58.120 --> 03:07.480 But this house, a downside, if the people who are talking in that room are stones. 03:07.480 --> 03:21.640 So what happens is that when someone joins the room and they send the message, they write 03:21.640 --> 03:24.400 that message to their own copy of the room. 03:24.400 --> 03:29.160 And the physics of matrix mean that that's going to synchronize with every other server 03:29.160 --> 03:32.000 in the room, regardless of what happens. 03:32.000 --> 03:40.080 And that's because all of the code that authorizes that event runs locally on that server. 03:40.080 --> 03:47.840 So if we go back to the beginning, the naive perspective is that what's allowed is obviously 03:47.840 --> 03:52.240 going to be determined by the moderation bar or the admin of the room. 03:52.240 --> 03:59.800 So you expect that the message somehow gets sent to the admin of the room or the moderation 03:59.800 --> 04:06.800 of the structure first, but that isn't what happens, it kind of just gets appended to the 04:06.800 --> 04:09.800 matrix, and then it synchronizes eventually. 04:09.800 --> 04:13.480 So every other server in the room, there's not really what we're talking about. 04:13.480 --> 04:27.240 Now, obviously there is somewhere we can do about it, which is, yeah, what I call reactive 04:27.240 --> 04:28.240 by a file. 04:28.240 --> 04:38.920 So what we end up doing is we end up sending a loop event, which reduces the spam or everything. 04:38.920 --> 04:44.760 Now, that works, but unfortunately if you come under a huge amount of spam, you're going 04:44.760 --> 04:49.240 to end up with a timeline that looks like this, and all of the redacted messages 04:49.240 --> 04:56.240 in this row then, that's so great. 04:56.240 --> 05:04.240 So how do we stop that from happening in the first place? 05:04.240 --> 05:08.240 Any volunteers try this? 05:08.240 --> 05:09.240 Pardon? 05:09.240 --> 05:10.240 Throw him out. 05:10.240 --> 05:12.240 Throw him out. 05:12.240 --> 05:18.240 Yeah, you could throw the stomp as out, but then, what if they just start an overwhelming number 05:18.240 --> 05:20.240 of new spam? 05:20.240 --> 05:22.240 Yeah. 05:22.240 --> 05:30.240 So, I've talked about this for very few of the years, and you get various ideas like, you 05:30.240 --> 05:37.240 know, we could sell an explicit allow list on the room, so all these servers were strict, 05:37.240 --> 05:43.240 registration requirements could join in that kind of thing. 05:43.240 --> 05:47.240 But the problem with that is that then you're excluding new people to the room. 05:47.240 --> 05:51.240 That's not really great. 05:51.240 --> 05:57.240 Yeah, I've gone backwards in my talk. 05:57.240 --> 06:07.240 So the main issue we're really dealing with is dealing with new users for room who are given 06:07.240 --> 06:11.240 my explicit access to a certain message or a straightaway. 06:11.240 --> 06:21.240 So when they can evolve and they're just able to write messages. 06:21.240 --> 06:27.240 And when users do register, so against the user, you're not in control of those requirements. 06:27.240 --> 06:33.240 You don't know necessarily what captures they've filled out or whether they've done email verification. 06:33.240 --> 06:37.240 That's necessarily. 06:37.240 --> 06:41.240 So how do we deal with that? 06:41.240 --> 06:45.240 So the elephant in the room is that this is actually been looked already. 06:45.240 --> 06:53.240 And there's a solution proposed which is to introduce the thing called the policy server, 06:53.240 --> 06:58.240 which is essentially a central server we can add to the room. 06:58.240 --> 07:04.240 But then those send these messages to before they get surprised. 07:04.240 --> 07:11.240 And that means we can throw the message away before everyone sees that they send this weird old 07:11.240 --> 07:13.240 family daughter. 07:13.240 --> 07:26.240 That was not my point. 07:26.240 --> 07:30.240 So yeah, thus before about the fundamental level, 07:30.240 --> 07:36.240 but what we're still trying to deal with is new users in the first place. 07:36.240 --> 07:42.240 So joining the room and that really know what the roles are and so on. 07:42.240 --> 07:50.240 So what we've been trying to do is to essentially, 07:50.240 --> 07:57.240 rather than treat the gate, rather than putting the gate on registering new users, 07:57.240 --> 08:02.240 we want to put it on the room itself and the community is that they join. 08:02.240 --> 08:09.240 Because ultimately, the moderate is for the hopes of not the same moderate is for the community. 08:09.240 --> 08:15.240 And it's the moderators that accumulate that have to deal with the new users and so on. 08:15.240 --> 08:20.240 So the big dream is to guide them through all of the new features of the matrix, 08:20.240 --> 08:23.240 so we're not new features. 08:23.240 --> 08:28.240 So, you know, the same idea as this course, if you just join the room, 08:28.240 --> 08:30.240 you're able to send links. 08:30.240 --> 08:36.240 You might be able to send images or whatever, but not a very large number of them. 08:36.240 --> 08:44.240 And you generally want them to read and confirm that they've read the kind of comics and so on. 08:44.240 --> 08:48.240 So that's what we've been trying to do. 08:48.240 --> 08:54.240 The next question is, well, you know, why are we done that yet? 08:54.240 --> 09:05.240 Well, what we say about that? 09:05.240 --> 09:09.240 Yeah, there's a lot of free requisites to do in that. 09:10.240 --> 09:16.240 To start with the policy server and I see that that was incredibly recent, right? 09:16.240 --> 09:21.240 We're talking April the year that's just gone. 09:21.240 --> 09:25.240 And that is such a shift in the way of thinking about matrix. 09:25.240 --> 09:36.240 I would have never have even read the time I see would have been proposed by the foundation itself and everybody governed around it. 09:36.240 --> 09:51.240 So, let's see, a lot's one thing. 09:51.240 --> 10:05.240 The next thing that I would like to have is essentially a user familiarity metric, which would power the power that system where people would get access to features and all the internet through the room. 10:05.240 --> 10:18.240 So, well, the user familiarity metric would be essentially how familiar the room moderates are for the beach individual user in the room. 10:18.240 --> 10:23.240 So, if there's a new user, they would have a low score on this metric. 10:23.240 --> 10:30.240 And if someone's been hanging around for months and then sent messages while the moderates were there, they'd have a high familiarity metric. 10:30.240 --> 10:38.240 And we'd use that to buy a non-liter provision system, if you like, for whether they can send links and so on. 10:38.240 --> 10:42.240 But also, like, spam resections and that kind of thing. 10:42.240 --> 10:51.240 And to start spying all over the messages with views that to buy us whether they get thrown into oblivion and whatnot. 10:52.240 --> 11:07.240 But generally, the main issue is that all of this work is deeply technical. 11:07.240 --> 11:22.240 And it requires a lot of support and infrastructure, which kind of does not exist on matrix of the minute. 11:22.240 --> 11:27.240 I've been trying to build it out for the past three years. 11:27.240 --> 11:34.240 Generally, it just begins to work on the actual problem. 11:34.240 --> 11:48.240 But things are improving. We've got new implementations of the same moderation, but now like me and that's springing a bunch of collaboration in the ecosystem. 11:48.240 --> 12:03.240 So, for example, the simplified bot commands and a C, which not only is going to improve the situation of the moderations, but that's your ex-improvement that will help all bots across the world. 12:03.240 --> 12:20.240 It's kind of weird that that would be springboarded by trust and safety work rather than general bot developers. 12:20.240 --> 12:24.240 Yeah. 12:24.240 --> 12:32.240 And then the next thing is, well, we got a lot of stuff on the plate with projects. 12:32.240 --> 12:44.240 We've project Hydra and we're also having to deal with a lot of issues that homesover our bins are having at the same time. 12:44.240 --> 12:53.240 We're currently focus on a major truck room situation necessarily all the time. 12:53.240 --> 13:00.240 Yeah. 13:00.240 --> 13:03.240 Yeah. 13:03.240 --> 13:07.240 Yeah, I'm kind of from the stop. Oh, what a whole deal with it. 13:07.240 --> 13:10.240 Um, does anyone got any questions? 13:10.240 --> 13:16.240 No, it's not there. 13:17.240 --> 13:26.240 Well, it's some, it's a moderation, but I'd call it an often purely platform because I'm like a fancy market and so. 13:26.240 --> 13:34.240 But you add it to your public matrix room and it'll synchronize bounds between your different matrix rooms. 13:34.240 --> 13:38.240 And you can subscribe to publicly create a bot list. 13:38.240 --> 13:49.240 So essentially, the way that matrix deals with this problem now, where the bulk and send the message and then you'll be able to end up on your timeline in the chat, 13:49.240 --> 13:56.240 is that there's an army of volunteer moderators who all maintain the same block list. 13:56.240 --> 13:59.240 And they're watching most of the public rooms. 13:59.240 --> 14:07.240 So when, you know, a bot farm spins up and they start sending spam all over the people will notice that. 14:07.240 --> 14:13.240 We'll write those accounts to the list within seconds and most people will even realize what's happened. 14:13.240 --> 14:16.240 That's how we deal with that in a minute. 14:16.240 --> 14:19.240 Yeah. 14:19.240 --> 14:23.240 Are there other questions? 14:23.240 --> 14:28.240 Yeah. 14:28.240 --> 14:37.240 Oh, yeah. 14:37.240 --> 14:49.240 So she asked, kind of talk about the slide that says projects of sustainability because I skipped over it a little one too. 14:49.240 --> 14:50.240 Yeah. 14:50.240 --> 14:59.240 All of this work needs to do it, but none of it gets done without people working on it. 14:59.240 --> 15:00.240 Yeah. 15:00.240 --> 15:08.240 On drought near especially, I spent a lot of time flashing out highly technical ways of dealing with things, 15:08.240 --> 15:18.240 whether that's, you know, the actual spam problem itself or it's run right ideas like the bot interactions, your ex and stuff. 15:18.240 --> 15:26.240 So it doesn't really matter if your technical solutions are incredible. 15:26.240 --> 15:36.240 If you're not actually solving the problem, yeah. 15:36.240 --> 15:45.240 Yeah. 15:45.240 --> 15:58.240 Is it what you're talking about the funding and the assistance I don't have? 15:58.240 --> 15:59.240 I haven't done this right. 15:59.240 --> 16:01.240 It was a project like fund. 16:01.240 --> 16:02.240 It's a number. 16:02.240 --> 16:06.240 So the question was how strong the funding was? 16:06.240 --> 16:07.240 Yeah. 16:07.240 --> 16:09.240 The assistance of sustainability. 16:10.240 --> 16:16.240 The projects in the minute we've got quite a good grant with an LDAP. 16:16.240 --> 16:20.240 But that's not like, that's not long term, right? 16:20.240 --> 16:36.240 So the idea with an LDAP grant is that you can get a set up and then you eventually figure out over time how to fund raise your own projects and so on. 16:36.240 --> 16:41.240 I've not particularly focused on that. 16:41.240 --> 16:44.240 We didn't say it. 16:44.240 --> 16:47.240 Yeah. 16:47.240 --> 16:50.240 But the same is true of a lot of matrix projects, right? 16:50.240 --> 16:54.240 We've got these really community-focused projects. 16:54.240 --> 17:01.240 And the mostly contributed by single people in the free time. 17:01.240 --> 17:07.240 Just, you know, really intelligent people who run off and do incredible projects. 17:07.240 --> 17:13.240 And then they have to go away or move on or whatever. 17:13.240 --> 17:21.240 So I've been thinking about how we can organise a community. 17:21.240 --> 17:24.240 It's a main thing, some of these projects. 17:24.240 --> 17:28.240 It kind of comes all the way. 17:28.240 --> 17:34.240 I don't really have any ideas yet. 17:34.240 --> 17:39.240 Yeah. 17:40.240 --> 17:46.240 Let's assume that these project funds are packed with sustainability. 17:46.240 --> 17:49.240 Thank you for asking us about this building. 17:49.240 --> 17:51.240 But there is a deal. 17:51.240 --> 17:54.240 He asked about, oh, should we need the idea? 17:54.240 --> 17:58.240 Do I need to put an important board over that, thanks. 17:58.240 --> 18:00.240 So I don't know if it's true or not. 18:00.240 --> 18:02.240 And these works. 18:02.240 --> 18:05.240 I mean, if we assume that because we're not looking to be there, then that's. 18:05.240 --> 18:06.240 I don't know if it's possible. 18:06.240 --> 18:09.240 It's important for the army of scholars. 18:09.240 --> 18:12.240 It's bigger than the one you want to do. 18:12.240 --> 18:13.240 Right. 18:13.240 --> 18:14.240 I don't really want to call it that. 18:14.240 --> 18:17.240 And of course, being there, I don't know. 18:17.240 --> 18:19.240 I mean, you'd like to talk about it. 18:19.240 --> 18:20.240 Right. 18:20.240 --> 18:22.240 Can A.I.T. 18:22.240 --> 18:25.240 Speckers really want to do that at one of the things. 18:25.240 --> 18:26.240 Right. 18:26.240 --> 18:30.240 So the question was about, because the projects. 18:30.240 --> 18:39.240 The question was about, because there's an army of volunteers who are in the background. 18:39.240 --> 18:43.240 Wack in the spammer way. 18:43.240 --> 18:46.240 Power's like going to work, long term. 18:46.240 --> 18:49.240 With regards to sustainable it. 18:49.240 --> 18:52.240 And it can A.I. help with that. 18:52.240 --> 18:58.240 So generally, the people who are doing the volunteer moderation, they're just moderating 18:58.240 --> 18:59.240 their own. 18:59.240 --> 19:04.240 Anyways, they just, when it serves as banning from their single room, they share that ban with 19:04.240 --> 19:05.240 all the people. 19:05.240 --> 19:07.240 So they're not doing any extra work. 19:07.240 --> 19:09.240 So that works. 19:09.240 --> 19:18.240 But yeah, the point is we want to minimize people's exposure to abuse in the first place. 19:18.240 --> 19:19.240 Right. 19:19.240 --> 19:21.240 So yeah, A.I.T. 19:22.240 --> 19:26.240 Particularly like the image classification and things like that. 19:26.240 --> 19:30.240 They can help deal with a lot of that burden. 19:30.240 --> 19:34.240 Leaving it if they find false positives or evidence. 19:34.240 --> 19:36.240 Still in that false zone. 19:36.240 --> 19:39.240 Being exposed to abuse. 19:39.240 --> 19:42.240 Yeah. 19:42.240 --> 19:47.240 Um. 19:47.240 --> 19:49.240 Have a question. 19:49.240 --> 19:50.240 Yeah. 19:50.240 --> 19:51.240 Yeah. 19:51.240 --> 20:01.240 Was that B Justin one room, or could it be shared across the community of rooms, or if that 20:01.240 --> 20:04.240 either had to talk about interior room. 20:04.240 --> 20:05.240 Some of the same members. 20:05.240 --> 20:10.240 They just start off with some more familiarity in a new room. 20:10.240 --> 20:11.240 Yeah. 20:11.240 --> 20:18.240 So the question was, was the use of familiarity metric could be shed between different communities. 20:18.240 --> 20:25.240 So the, you know, information about a user was. 20:25.240 --> 20:27.240 Yeah. 20:27.240 --> 20:28.240 Um. 20:28.240 --> 20:30.240 The answer is yes. 20:30.240 --> 20:31.240 Um. 20:31.240 --> 20:37.240 But generally that kind of thing, come from the, the scope of what we call distributed 20:37.240 --> 20:38.240 reputation. 20:38.240 --> 20:39.240 Um. 20:39.240 --> 20:41.240 Specifically for drown. 20:41.240 --> 20:42.240 Yeah. 20:42.240 --> 20:47.240 We're just focusing on one single community at the moment and making sure we don't. 20:48.240 --> 20:51.240 How friendly fire issues and so on. 20:51.240 --> 20:53.240 Um. 20:53.240 --> 20:54.240 Yeah. 20:54.240 --> 20:56.240 The way that. 20:56.240 --> 20:59.240 You can kind of get quite followed already. 20:59.240 --> 21:03.240 It's just by having some way of marking who you are friends with. 21:03.240 --> 21:08.240 And then you can kind of build the network all of that and so on. 21:08.240 --> 21:09.240 But yeah. 21:09.240 --> 21:14.240 There's a whole kind of worms about the bootstrap problem with that kind of system. 21:14.240 --> 21:16.240 If you run your. 21:16.240 --> 21:17.240 Yeah. 21:17.240 --> 21:20.240 Um. 21:20.240 --> 21:22.240 I've got a question. 21:22.240 --> 21:24.240 Uh. 21:24.240 --> 21:27.240 No, I don't want to ask myself that question. 21:27.240 --> 21:29.240 It's really over questions. 21:29.240 --> 21:34.240 Yeah. 21:34.240 --> 21:35.240 You want. 21:35.240 --> 21:37.240 We want that question. 21:37.240 --> 21:40.240 Um. 21:40.240 --> 21:42.240 Yeah. 21:42.240 --> 21:44.240 Because this is a. 21:44.240 --> 21:48.240 The distribution system and we've got all this. 21:48.240 --> 21:51.240 Complicate itself and allow people to send. 21:51.240 --> 21:52.240 Um. 21:52.240 --> 21:53.240 Um. 21:53.240 --> 21:55.240 Why not just give up and go back to a. 21:55.240 --> 21:58.240 Essential service like this call. 21:58.240 --> 22:00.240 There's. 22:00.240 --> 22:04.240 Moderators who can see exactly, you know, you can ping the print. 22:04.240 --> 22:06.240 The use of an everything get everything. 22:07.240 --> 22:09.240 So even fun. 22:09.240 --> 22:10.240 But. 22:10.240 --> 22:12.240 So me, that's kind of. 22:12.240 --> 22:14.240 Give, you know. 22:14.240 --> 22:16.240 Um. 22:16.240 --> 22:17.240 Yeah. 22:17.240 --> 22:19.240 This stuff is highly complicated. 22:19.240 --> 22:21.240 And the pain in the ass. 22:21.240 --> 22:24.240 But. 22:24.240 --> 22:26.240 You need these kind of. 22:26.240 --> 22:29.240 You need distributive systems concepts. 22:29.240 --> 22:30.240 Keep. 22:30.240 --> 22:32.240 Authority itself accountable. 22:32.240 --> 22:34.240 So what I mean by that is. 22:35.240 --> 22:37.240 People who run the servers. 22:37.240 --> 22:38.240 But. 22:38.240 --> 22:39.240 And moderators and so on. 22:39.240 --> 22:40.240 You will lead. 22:40.240 --> 22:41.240 Single right. 22:41.240 --> 22:42.240 Ladies or whatever. 22:42.240 --> 22:44.240 Even the centralized system. 22:44.240 --> 22:45.240 So keep. 22:45.240 --> 22:46.240 Reck on of what they're doing. 22:46.240 --> 22:50.240 And you'll want to replicate those records of why you've got no idea. 22:50.240 --> 22:52.240 But they could just be lying to you. 22:52.240 --> 22:54.240 Um. 22:54.240 --> 22:57.240 And the second part of this is. 22:57.240 --> 22:59.240 Um. 22:59.240 --> 23:00.240 In distributed systems. 23:00.240 --> 23:02.240 Sometimes in consistency. 23:03.240 --> 23:05.240 And when they're in. 23:05.240 --> 23:08.240 Because you get where you call Byzantium. 23:08.240 --> 23:10.240 Byzantine actors and they can. 23:10.240 --> 23:11.240 Lightly children. 23:11.240 --> 23:12.240 So. 23:12.240 --> 23:13.240 But. 23:13.240 --> 23:14.240 Um. 23:14.240 --> 23:16.240 This is just a personal. 23:16.240 --> 23:17.240 Take. 23:17.240 --> 23:20.240 But I would say that. 23:20.240 --> 23:23.240 Will it is actually necessary in order to recover from. 23:23.240 --> 23:24.240 And the view to work. 23:24.240 --> 23:25.240 But that's a a rope, so. 23:25.240 --> 23:26.240 Rob. 23:26.240 --> 23:27.240 Or a rope. 23:27.240 --> 23:28.240 Right on. 23:28.240 --> 23:29.240 So. 23:29.240 --> 23:36.440 The key thing here is, you know, you haven't just got to care about the farmers who can be a 23:36.440 --> 23:37.440 beauty. 23:37.440 --> 23:41.440 If you've got to actually care about people who are operating the infrastructure in the first place, 23:41.440 --> 23:47.240 you can't just focus on the outside as well.