WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:13.000 So, the next board is still going to be about essentially turning up of four of the 00:13.000 --> 00:14.000 process of community. 00:14.000 --> 00:16.000 It's going to be again by us. 00:16.000 --> 00:18.000 Sorry for that. 00:18.000 --> 00:21.000 And the title of the board is not a public sector. 00:21.000 --> 00:24.000 Can system evenly work with a bunch of communities? 00:24.000 --> 00:28.000 Yeah, so it's a bit related, actually, to the top, we just had, so I just created 00:29.000 --> 00:31.000 a new slide for that. 00:31.000 --> 00:34.000 For us, it's great to be part of Open Desk. 00:34.000 --> 00:38.000 Of course, it's interesting to integrate all these different products. 00:38.000 --> 00:40.000 Some of them were integrating anyway. 00:40.000 --> 00:42.000 Like, actually, we work with Open Project. 00:42.000 --> 00:48.000 Some of the other products we mostly work with within the Open Desk set up. 00:48.000 --> 00:51.000 This was really meant to be a discussion. 00:51.000 --> 00:54.000 So, I will have only a few slides with only a few things. 00:54.000 --> 00:57.000 But I thought, let's talk quickly about Sundays. 00:57.000 --> 01:01.000 And, of course, also relevant for last week to minebrow on the other projects. 01:01.000 --> 01:06.000 I find that, I found a funny that one of the points that was made is that it was hard for, 01:06.000 --> 01:09.000 you know, the government agencies to collaborate, to work together, 01:09.000 --> 01:14.000 you know, to sign the documents like the paper was difficult, other stuff. 01:14.000 --> 01:16.000 And it's kind of funny because we know, 01:16.000 --> 01:19.000 the source has solved that a long time ago, if you look at Linux kernel, 01:19.000 --> 01:22.000 you know, the agreement is basically the license. 01:22.000 --> 01:25.000 And there are thousands of companies and individuals working together. 01:25.000 --> 01:28.000 I mean, Linux kernel is the biggest open source project in the world. 01:28.000 --> 01:31.000 And there's no contract between these companies. There's nothing. 01:31.000 --> 01:36.000 They're just all contribute under the framework of an open source community. 01:36.000 --> 01:42.000 So, I know, I think personally, I like that model a lot more than, you know, 01:42.000 --> 01:46.000 the rigid, you know, bureaucratic, top-down, you know, 01:46.000 --> 01:48.000 a committee decides what features to build, etc. 01:48.000 --> 01:53.000 I think the way Linux kernel works means that what is needed gets built. 01:53.000 --> 01:57.000 And always, when you have funding, and that's one of the things we're talking about, of course, 01:57.000 --> 02:00.000 you will run the risk of building something that looks great for the people 02:00.000 --> 02:03.000 who decide on the funding, or nobody actually needs it. 02:03.000 --> 02:07.000 On the other hand, if you only listen to users and know that works that way as well, 02:07.000 --> 02:09.000 as a company, you have the same challenge. 02:09.000 --> 02:12.000 You know, users don't always know what they want. 02:12.000 --> 02:16.000 I think there's a famous saying from, and reporter think, you know, 02:16.000 --> 02:19.000 I had built what people asked, they would have set faster horses. 02:19.000 --> 02:23.000 And, yeah, so, it's a complicated thing. 02:23.000 --> 02:28.000 And at the end, of course, I asked about the rollout, because I think in the end, 02:28.000 --> 02:35.000 and I want to make that argument in a minute as well, all this funding is nice, 02:35.000 --> 02:39.000 but we're paying as Europe 360 billion a year. 02:39.000 --> 02:45.000 So, none of this matters in the picture of how much money is actually spent on IT in Europe. 02:45.000 --> 02:50.000 And if we can shift one percent of that, that has actually way more impact. 02:50.000 --> 02:54.000 That's why I think that the rollout, that was my last question, the rollout is important thing. 02:54.000 --> 02:59.000 Because I found a funding, you said, 100,000 desktops last year, 02:59.000 --> 03:01.000 go to Open Desk, that's really cool. 03:01.000 --> 03:05.000 I also have 100,000 for Nexloud, but Nexloud, of course, is used, 03:05.000 --> 03:10.000 not only in the public sector, but also in education, and, you know, 03:10.000 --> 03:17.000 private companies, etc., but we also had about 100,000 new desktops rolled out last year 03:17.000 --> 03:20.000 with Nexloud, as a sovereign workplace. 03:20.000 --> 03:24.000 That's just for the public sector, because the numbers and education are much bigger, 03:24.000 --> 03:27.000 because university is done to be big, and it's also permanent. 03:27.000 --> 03:33.000 So, there's about 1.2 million new desktops last year, rolling out with Nexloud, 03:33.000 --> 03:36.000 which I'm very proud of, of course. 03:36.000 --> 03:40.000 But that's still nothing compared to the challenge we have with Microsoft, etc., 03:40.000 --> 03:42.000 that's where the real challenge is. 03:42.000 --> 03:45.000 So, we need these numbers to go up very much, and that's personally also, 03:45.000 --> 03:48.000 where I would focus if it was the public sector. 03:48.000 --> 03:53.000 Anyway, so, some ideas, I mean, I've heard a lot of ideas, 03:53.000 --> 03:55.000 and I'm sure many of you have more ideas. 03:55.000 --> 03:59.000 I actually haven't really figured out a way to easily out those ideas here, 03:59.000 --> 04:02.000 but we can try to remember them. 04:02.000 --> 04:06.000 I mean, you have then projects like OpenDesk, class wheat. 04:06.000 --> 04:11.000 I've heard a lot, I mean, there are some big open source projects that run on kind of donations, 04:11.000 --> 04:14.000 and those are, can be get pretty serious. 04:14.000 --> 04:17.000 If you know Blender, for example, that's a pretty big successful project. 04:17.000 --> 04:21.000 They have serious team of people working on it, and they're completely donation funded. 04:21.000 --> 04:25.000 So, you can do pretty big things with donations. 04:25.000 --> 04:30.000 Well, Wikipedia, of course, is also a good example, although writing software is not a primary thing. 04:30.000 --> 04:34.000 There of course, subsidies, there are some really cool projects also here. 04:34.000 --> 04:39.000 You know, like the Prototype Fund, the Next Generation Internet project, and others, 04:39.000 --> 04:44.000 that fund, you know, OpenSource development, which, again, it has downside sometimes, 04:44.000 --> 04:47.000 the funding of those things is like for six months. 04:47.000 --> 04:51.000 That's great when you're 23 and trying to build something up. 04:51.000 --> 04:55.000 If you're 40 and have a mortgage, that doesn't really work, that kind of stuff. 04:55.000 --> 04:57.000 So, that is a bit of a downside of that. 04:58.000 --> 05:01.000 You have a model to fund open source by paying for features. 05:01.000 --> 05:05.000 I'll get to that, but that is pretty shit. 05:05.000 --> 05:11.000 I've seen the proposal that said, hey, we should ask companies that host open source 05:11.000 --> 05:13.000 and sell it as a SaaS solution. 05:13.000 --> 05:19.000 They should put 1% of the money they earn into open source projects. 05:19.000 --> 05:23.000 I don't think they'll ever get us to the string that is 60 billion, 05:23.000 --> 05:25.000 or even 0.001% of it. 05:25.000 --> 05:28.000 So, there's a problem with that as well. 05:28.000 --> 05:30.000 Any other ideas? 05:30.000 --> 05:33.000 Anybody wants to out that aren't covered here? 05:33.000 --> 05:39.000 Feel free to wave at me and say, yeah. 05:39.000 --> 05:47.000 So, as a company, you'll hire the maintainers. 05:47.000 --> 05:52.000 So, basically, we could sustain open source by having companies hire maintainers. 05:52.000 --> 05:53.000 Yeah. 05:53.000 --> 05:55.000 I do have one critical question here. 05:55.000 --> 05:59.000 If a company would not hire a maintainer, would that mean, what would that mean for that company? 05:59.000 --> 06:00.000 Right. 06:00.000 --> 06:06.000 So, then that comes to be pay for features. 06:06.000 --> 06:07.000 All right. 06:07.000 --> 06:08.000 Yeah. 06:08.000 --> 06:12.000 Any other ideas? 06:12.000 --> 06:16.000 There is, of course, the model that next allowed, and actually, 06:16.000 --> 06:19.000 and others use, right, which actually, I know, may, 06:19.000 --> 06:26.000 because I didn't, but that's not how the government can help, but we, of course, offer support 06:26.000 --> 06:31.000 and other services to companies, and that's how we run our business and pay our 90 developers 06:31.000 --> 06:33.000 at the moment at next slide. 06:33.000 --> 06:37.000 That is actually also a work in the moment. 06:37.000 --> 06:39.000 Any more? 06:39.000 --> 06:40.000 All right. 06:40.000 --> 06:48.000 So, I think on your 1% size, I think my vision is a percentage of size would be interesting 06:48.000 --> 06:49.000 to work. 06:49.000 --> 06:50.000 I could work. 06:50.000 --> 06:51.000 Exactly. 06:51.000 --> 06:54.000 I mean, maybe 10% might get to deal. 06:54.000 --> 06:55.000 Yeah. 06:55.000 --> 06:58.000 I'm not completely sure it would, but it would be a start. 06:58.000 --> 06:59.000 It would be a start. 06:59.000 --> 07:00.000 Yeah. 07:00.000 --> 07:06.000 It would be a start into representing something significant of what it presents. 07:06.000 --> 07:07.000 Yeah. 07:07.000 --> 07:09.000 That's exactly what I want to talk about next. 07:09.000 --> 07:13.000 So, point here may, to us, like, the 1% how far does it get us? 07:13.000 --> 07:15.000 Maybe any 10% maybe more. 07:15.000 --> 07:19.000 So, I want to press a little bit on the size of the problem we have here. 07:19.000 --> 07:21.000 And there are two ways of coming to that problem. 07:21.000 --> 07:24.000 One is, of course, well, the basic needs. 07:24.000 --> 07:29.400 So, at next slide, in the last couple of releases, I've been doing some statistics on the 07:29.400 --> 07:34.000 code that goes into next slide on where it's coming from, etc., and what it's used for. 07:34.000 --> 07:39.000 And so, for every release, about 5% of the pull requests that are merged are related 07:39.000 --> 07:40.000 to feature. 07:40.000 --> 07:44.000 And 95% is related to maintenance. 07:44.000 --> 07:50.000 So, if the European government will run a sport out of source by going to pay for features, 07:50.000 --> 07:56.000 any project they contribute to significantly will die, because the other 19x of work 07:56.000 --> 08:00.000 will then not be done, and therefore the project would not be able to maintain this. 08:00.000 --> 08:05.000 And otherwise, if looking at that number, I've asked online, like, how much does it cost 08:05.000 --> 08:09.000 to maintain a feature compared to the initial development costs per year. 08:10.000 --> 08:17.000 The numbers people gave me, because I made a poll, which was, like, 10% 2030, and people were, like, 50, 60. 08:17.000 --> 08:20.000 So, you know, I 30 is quite low. 08:20.000 --> 08:22.000 So, maintenance is really a problem. 08:22.000 --> 08:26.000 And that's also why I asked a critical question, like, a company that hire someone. 08:26.000 --> 08:33.000 There's a tragedy of the comments problem here, that why would you pay for something that if somebody else could do it? 08:33.000 --> 08:37.000 And we all need it, everybody agrees we need maintenance, but in the end it's just a cost. 08:37.000 --> 08:43.000 So, any company that says, oh, we're going to pay a million years from maintenance of one of the projects we're using, 08:43.000 --> 08:49.000 as soon as they need to cut costs, it's the first thing that goes, because nothing will happen if they cut that cost, 08:49.000 --> 08:51.000 which is a huge problem. 08:51.000 --> 08:56.000 It means nobody can pay for the mortgage with that money, because it can be cut any moment, 08:56.000 --> 09:00.000 and then you have to go to the bank and, you know, give me your house back. 09:00.000 --> 09:06.000 Isn't it strange that we play licenses to all the close source things? 09:06.000 --> 09:11.000 And it's maybe this is in the licenses, and we make it transparent for what we do for the money, 09:11.000 --> 09:14.000 and then everybody who wants to cut these costs. 09:14.000 --> 09:15.000 Exactly, yeah. 09:15.000 --> 09:19.000 So, we've prepared ourselves to pay for the maintenance with licenses, 09:19.000 --> 09:22.000 and that's effectively what you do with next, loud, and extra weekend others. 09:22.000 --> 09:27.000 If you buy it, and because, yeah, sure, support other services, but in the end, 09:27.000 --> 09:33.000 the main thing is we pay the 95% out of that, and do a little bit of feature development as well. 09:33.000 --> 09:36.000 So, it helps a bit to pay for this, but that's a challenge, yes. 09:36.000 --> 09:42.000 So, let's say you build a feature. 09:42.000 --> 09:44.000 No, the maintenance. 09:44.000 --> 09:46.000 So, exactly. 09:46.000 --> 09:51.000 Let's say you pay 100k for a feature, then next year to keep it. 09:51.000 --> 09:53.000 Yes. 09:53.000 --> 09:56.000 Intel, exactly. 09:56.000 --> 10:00.000 Yeah, the question is what 30% is, so that's what you would pay. 10:00.000 --> 10:05.000 If you spend 100k on the feature, you know, to keep that running later, 10:05.000 --> 10:07.000 it will not be 30k every year. 10:07.000 --> 10:10.000 But at some point, you need to rewrite the feature for a new framework, 10:10.000 --> 10:12.000 the developers among you know that paying. 10:12.000 --> 10:15.000 And you get nothing out of that, except the old framework as that, 10:15.000 --> 10:17.000 so you have to do it, period. 10:17.000 --> 10:19.000 Nobody's going to pay for it, because it's not a feature. 10:19.000 --> 10:21.000 You get nothing out of the new framework. 10:21.000 --> 10:23.000 We have to do it, because it will not be secure. 10:23.000 --> 10:26.000 It will not be maintainable if you don't. 10:26.000 --> 10:28.000 And make it as a significant. 10:28.000 --> 10:34.000 Usually, it's going to cost you about 3 times as much in the next 3 to 5 years, 10:34.000 --> 10:37.000 which is probably about the same number if you think about it. 10:37.000 --> 10:39.000 Yeah, exactly. That comes to the same. 10:39.000 --> 10:40.000 3 to 5x. 10:40.000 --> 10:46.000 I have a 3 to 5x, but it's a different one. 10:46.000 --> 10:50.000 You see, when you say, paying for a feature, that's actually, 10:50.000 --> 10:54.000 it's not that simple. We get a lot of feature-dequest from customers. 10:54.000 --> 10:57.000 But of course, that customer has specific problem, and they want us to solve it. 10:57.000 --> 11:01.000 Now, solving that can be done by something very specific for that customer, 11:01.000 --> 11:05.000 but nobody also benefits from it, so that's not how you build a product. 11:05.000 --> 11:08.000 You cannot build a product with consulting by doing features, 11:08.000 --> 11:12.000 because you'll be building a horrible product, and it will not be usable. 11:12.000 --> 11:14.000 It will not solve the problem. 11:14.000 --> 11:17.000 And my wild estimate here, also, obviously talking to other people, 11:17.000 --> 11:22.000 is that it's easily 3 to 5 times expensive to build a feature that everyone can use 11:22.000 --> 11:25.000 and to build a feature the customers willing to pay for. 11:25.000 --> 11:30.000 So, again, if you just go by, let somebody pay me for features, 11:30.000 --> 11:33.000 you are 5 times too low to build a feature in a way outer. 11:33.000 --> 11:37.000 Can you use it in your 20 times too low to be able to maintain it, 11:37.000 --> 11:39.000 or 30% per year? 11:39.000 --> 11:42.000 So, that's the problem that we have as open source community. 11:42.000 --> 11:46.000 And right now, there's a solved by volunteers in many communities, 11:46.000 --> 11:52.000 or by companies like ours who do this by kind of trying to make customers pay for it. 11:52.000 --> 11:54.000 It's not that easy. I can tell you that. 11:54.000 --> 11:56.000 I mean, next I'll just do it pretty well. 11:56.000 --> 11:59.000 I can throw big numbers at you, but it's actually very hard to pay. 11:59.000 --> 12:05.000 We have companies who come to us and say, look, we're happy to buy your product. 12:05.000 --> 12:08.000 But, you know, we have a policy that if you can download the product for free, 12:08.000 --> 12:10.000 we're not allowed to pay for it. 12:10.000 --> 12:12.000 That means they cannot pay us, because, you know, 12:12.000 --> 12:14.000 we want to do 100% open source. 12:14.000 --> 12:18.000 Therefore, we cannot get money from certain companies, because they have to send 12:18.000 --> 12:20.000 basically an anti-open source policy. 12:20.000 --> 12:21.000 We cannot force them. 12:21.000 --> 12:24.000 As you stop paying Microsoft, well, then you're products of working. 12:24.000 --> 12:25.000 It's not the case with next ad. 12:25.000 --> 12:26.000 We don't want vendor looking. 12:26.000 --> 12:29.000 Therefore, we try to make it so that when you stop paying us, 12:29.000 --> 12:31.000 the product keeps working. 12:31.000 --> 12:35.000 Well, good luck then, convincing your purchasing department to keep paying every year. 12:35.000 --> 12:36.000 That's the tough one. 12:36.000 --> 12:39.000 So, running an open source business the way we do. 12:39.000 --> 12:42.000 I mean, I don't know if this is going to scale to the scale that we need to 12:42.000 --> 12:45.000 really compete with Microsoft at every level. 12:45.000 --> 12:46.000 I don't know yet. 12:46.000 --> 12:49.000 Maybe open source cannot do that fundamentally in the model that we have. 12:49.000 --> 12:51.000 And we'll see in the coming years, because, of course, 12:51.000 --> 12:53.000 it's still our goal to take them home. 12:53.000 --> 12:54.000 We'll see. 12:54.000 --> 12:55.000 So, it's really tricky. 12:55.000 --> 12:58.000 And just to hammer that down a little bit further, 12:58.000 --> 13:01.000 there's the other way of looking at a problem, which is where 13:01.000 --> 13:03.000 it is the money, actually, currently. 13:03.000 --> 13:06.000 And because governments are putting some subsidies in, 13:06.000 --> 13:09.000 but those numbers are pretty small, because this amount of money that 13:09.000 --> 13:13.000 the German state of Bavarian is going to pay Microsoft in the next couple of years. 13:13.000 --> 13:16.000 And the total amount of money that goes every year to the big tax firms 13:16.000 --> 13:17.000 is this much. 13:17.000 --> 13:20.000 So, 100 million subsidies sounds like a lot, 13:20.000 --> 13:22.000 but it's going to be spread out over five years. 13:22.000 --> 13:23.000 And it's a complete drop in the bucket, 13:23.000 --> 13:25.000 compared to what's actually needed. 13:25.000 --> 13:27.000 If we can move one percent of the money that goes to 13:27.000 --> 13:32.000 big tax this year, we can fund 100 times everything that's being 13:32.000 --> 13:34.000 funded right now. 13:34.000 --> 13:38.000 So, I much more prefer any efforts going into digital sovereignty 13:38.000 --> 13:43.000 to go into move things from big tax to what exists today. 13:43.000 --> 13:47.000 And given that our governments are, you know, having policies like 13:47.000 --> 13:50.000 Microsoft strategy, but they run everything on Azure, 13:50.000 --> 13:52.000 even if it's a simple for you, that can run at any house 13:52.000 --> 13:55.000 and provider in Europe, it is absolutely possible. 13:55.000 --> 13:58.000 And people say, well, yeah, but European technology cannot do 13:58.000 --> 14:00.000 everything that is needed. 14:00.000 --> 14:04.000 Sure, but it can do 70 percent, why aren't you doing 70 percent? 14:04.000 --> 14:05.000 Yes. 14:05.000 --> 14:09.000 You have any successful story of this kind of migration of 70 percent 14:09.000 --> 14:10.000 from property to property. 14:10.000 --> 14:11.000 It slaves, we call Stein. 14:11.000 --> 14:14.000 So, the German state slaves, we call Stein, they moved completely 14:14.000 --> 14:17.000 away from Microsoft now for 80 percent of the desktops. 14:17.000 --> 14:20.000 So, they're still 20 percent. 14:20.000 --> 14:23.000 And if you are working with crazy Excel sheets and macros and 14:23.000 --> 14:26.000 other weird stuff, you have to go to their trigger, 14:26.000 --> 14:30.000 the Minister of Digitalization, personally, ask him for an 14:30.000 --> 14:33.000 exception that you can keep using Microsoft. 14:33.000 --> 14:36.000 And he will then also say, okay, but then are you not working with 14:36.000 --> 14:39.000 the team to make sure that these macros are migrated? 14:39.000 --> 14:42.000 And we find another way of doing it, that a few years from now. 14:42.000 --> 14:44.000 So, as we call civil, we'll be at 100 percent away from Microsoft. 14:44.000 --> 14:46.000 And I'm talking about desktop. 14:46.000 --> 14:49.000 I'm talking about in the cloud, they're using NextLoud for the 14:49.000 --> 14:51.000 collaboration among other things. 14:51.000 --> 14:53.000 So, yeah, it's possible. 14:53.000 --> 14:55.000 And it's a complete German state. 14:55.000 --> 14:57.000 So, this is tens of thousands of people. 14:57.000 --> 15:00.000 The police, on the way to the Parliament, 80 percent is now done. 15:00.000 --> 15:01.000 The rest is coming. 15:01.000 --> 15:02.000 So, is it possible? 15:02.000 --> 15:03.000 Absolutely. 15:03.000 --> 15:06.000 I just said, 100,000 every month last year. 15:06.000 --> 15:10.000 France, Ministry of Education, 300, 30,000 government employees use 15:10.000 --> 15:11.000 NextLoud. 15:11.000 --> 15:16.000 Ministering Austria completely moves over, mostly moves over 15:16.000 --> 15:18.000 they're still using some Microsoft stuff. 15:18.000 --> 15:19.000 But it is possible. 15:19.000 --> 15:20.000 This is not a problem. 15:20.000 --> 15:21.000 Technology isn't. 15:21.000 --> 15:22.000 That's a problem. 15:22.000 --> 15:26.000 And when you can move 20 percent, be you don't, because you know, 15:26.000 --> 15:27.000 we can't move 100 percent. 15:27.000 --> 15:29.000 And then you're part of the problem. 15:29.000 --> 15:31.000 And this is exactly what's happening at the moment. 15:31.000 --> 15:32.000 Nobody's really moved. 15:32.000 --> 15:33.000 Well, there are some projects. 15:33.000 --> 15:34.000 Most of them are moving. 15:34.000 --> 15:37.000 Because, you know, they're afraid of that last percent. 15:37.000 --> 15:40.000 So, back to these ideas. 15:40.000 --> 15:43.000 I mean, it's great that governments are building stuff. 15:43.000 --> 15:47.000 But we don't really need that, I think. 15:47.000 --> 15:49.000 I think what we need is migration projects. 15:49.000 --> 15:52.000 To get that 360 billion, a little bit of that, 15:52.000 --> 15:54.000 move to European absorbs developers. 15:54.000 --> 15:56.000 Opsource companies. 15:56.000 --> 15:57.000 Opsource communities. 15:57.000 --> 15:59.000 I don't care how it's funded, honestly. 15:59.000 --> 16:03.000 As long as we stop giving it to luxury arts and private planes. 16:03.000 --> 16:05.000 That's my opinion there. 16:05.000 --> 16:06.000 Other thoughts are welcome. 16:06.000 --> 16:07.000 Yeah. 16:07.000 --> 16:08.000 Yes, yes. 16:08.000 --> 16:12.000 You came back to the idea thing is that it's one thing that you didn't put here. 16:12.000 --> 16:13.000 Yeah. 16:13.000 --> 16:14.000 Or it's open core. 16:14.000 --> 16:15.000 Open core. 16:15.000 --> 16:17.000 And it didn't put it here. 16:17.000 --> 16:19.000 And so why didn't you put it here? 16:19.000 --> 16:21.000 I didn't even put around business model here. 16:21.000 --> 16:24.000 So these slides were maybe made a little bit too quickly. 16:24.000 --> 16:27.000 But yeah, there are lots of tricks and shenanigans. 16:27.000 --> 16:28.000 I like open source. 16:28.000 --> 16:31.000 We all know, I mean, a lot of people here don't need to explain that. 16:31.000 --> 16:36.000 Open source is actually a wide array of things from open core, 16:36.000 --> 16:39.000 which has its downsides. 16:39.000 --> 16:40.000 Why open core means? 16:40.000 --> 16:41.000 Yeah. 16:41.000 --> 16:42.000 OK. 16:42.000 --> 16:44.000 Well, let me quickly define it. 16:44.000 --> 16:48.000 I mean, open core means that you have a part of the project that's fully open source. 16:48.000 --> 16:50.000 Let's say, GPL license. 16:50.000 --> 16:57.000 But the company behind it owns the code ownership, the authorship. 16:57.000 --> 16:59.000 So everybody wants to contribute to it. 16:59.000 --> 17:02.000 You sign that copyright away to that company. 17:02.000 --> 17:05.000 It depends a bit on local order, some gray areas they have. 17:05.000 --> 17:11.000 But in principle, you have to give that company the right to make a proprietary version of that project. 17:11.000 --> 17:13.000 Which is then what they sell. 17:13.000 --> 17:16.000 So then as a company, you want to buy from that company. 17:16.000 --> 17:18.000 You can either get the free version. 17:18.000 --> 17:23.000 But some features you can only get in the enterprise version, which has proprietary bits. 17:23.000 --> 17:25.000 So you have to pay. 17:25.000 --> 17:29.000 Because like the problem our salespeople have, namely, I can download it for free. 17:29.000 --> 17:31.000 You will not have at that point. 17:31.000 --> 17:34.000 And yet part of the project is free in open source. 17:34.000 --> 17:35.000 It's great. 17:35.000 --> 17:39.000 The problem there is, of course, that if you in that company ask the salespeople, 17:39.000 --> 17:44.000 hey, what can we do to make my money, they will say, remove more free features. 17:44.000 --> 17:51.000 So this is a business model that, in my opinion, has a big of a problem because it's unstable. 17:51.000 --> 17:55.000 And a previous company that we had, and next time there's a fork of uncloud as you might remember, 17:55.000 --> 17:58.000 that was an uncloud business model that's the reason we didn't go for that. 17:58.000 --> 18:03.000 Because we constantly had this pressure internally to make more things proprietary. 18:03.000 --> 18:05.000 It's an easy way to make money. 18:05.000 --> 18:10.000 I would say, I don't know, if you make a deal with the community that you say, hey, we're going to bootstrap our company. 18:10.000 --> 18:12.000 We're going to be open core for the next five years. 18:12.000 --> 18:17.000 We sign a contract, we create a foundation, something that gets the code ownership. 18:17.000 --> 18:20.000 And after those five years, we will try and build the business device. 18:20.000 --> 18:24.000 And we at next level, the next week we can do completely open source, for example. 18:24.000 --> 18:26.000 You know, you can find a middle ground there. 18:26.000 --> 18:29.000 Open core is not crazy, but long-term risky. 18:29.000 --> 18:30.000 Yeah. 18:30.000 --> 18:35.000 So I have a suggestion there, and because I do agree that open core is problematic, 18:35.000 --> 18:39.000 because it will end up fighting between open source and not open source. 18:39.000 --> 18:45.000 And what we ask company and contributors and ask contributors before being a company you want to do is, 18:45.000 --> 18:47.000 is do open source. 18:47.000 --> 18:50.000 And so one suggestion, and this is what we do at the tweaky. 18:50.000 --> 18:53.000 And we feel it's been working well for us. 18:53.000 --> 18:56.000 It's paying with still open source. 18:56.000 --> 19:00.000 So basically, no free download for certain features. 19:00.000 --> 19:02.000 So basically, we have an app store. 19:02.000 --> 19:07.000 You can add extensions to it to give which brings the similar thing at what open core is. 19:07.000 --> 19:08.000 You need this app. 19:08.000 --> 19:10.000 Where do I find it? 19:10.000 --> 19:11.000 Up here it is. 19:11.000 --> 19:12.000 It's paying. 19:12.000 --> 19:13.000 Is it still open source? 19:13.000 --> 19:14.000 Yes. 19:14.000 --> 19:15.000 All the code is there. 19:15.000 --> 19:17.000 I think WordPress does the same. 19:17.000 --> 19:18.000 You need one. 19:18.000 --> 19:19.000 Use it for free. 19:19.000 --> 19:24.000 You're going to have to invest a significant amount of time of your own teams and technology, 19:24.000 --> 19:25.000 and people, etc. 19:25.000 --> 19:27.000 And you're going to have to do it. 19:27.000 --> 19:31.000 And to finish on this thing, our migration tools are on this model. 19:31.000 --> 19:34.000 Which makes that people that want to move from that to the country. 19:34.000 --> 19:38.000 And have millions of euros of contracts without that option. 19:38.000 --> 19:41.000 When they come to us, they need the migration tools. 19:41.000 --> 19:44.000 And we can tell them why? 19:44.000 --> 19:49.000 Why would you want to give us much less money than you are giving to a classian? 19:49.000 --> 19:55.000 Like you can just give us the same money, and we will have tons of money to do great open source. 19:55.000 --> 19:57.000 And you're going to have open source. 19:57.000 --> 20:00.000 And if we screw up, you can still have the source. 20:00.000 --> 20:01.000 And you can drop us out. 20:01.000 --> 20:03.000 You can send us out of business. 20:03.000 --> 20:04.000 That's the model. 20:04.000 --> 20:05.000 That's the model. 20:05.000 --> 20:07.000 If we make prices that are too high. 20:08.000 --> 20:10.000 I'm sorry, I repeating that is difficult. 20:10.000 --> 20:14.000 But their model is basically to have some of the code open source, 20:14.000 --> 20:17.000 except you can't download it until you're a paying customer. 20:17.000 --> 20:19.000 There are downsides to that too. 20:19.000 --> 20:23.000 We've seen other open source companies that basically just try to make it very hard. 20:23.000 --> 20:28.000 To roll out and deploy the software, and then they could sell consulting to roll it out. 20:28.000 --> 20:31.000 You can imagine that limits the adoption of your project. 20:31.000 --> 20:34.000 So we don't do that next slide, but it is another way there are. 20:34.000 --> 20:35.000 Yeah. 20:35.000 --> 20:36.000 My last point. 20:36.000 --> 20:37.000 We have to close. 20:37.000 --> 20:39.000 One model because I'm not. 20:39.000 --> 20:40.000 Yeah. 20:40.000 --> 20:41.000 Notable models. 20:41.000 --> 20:42.000 Yes, that's a very good point. 20:42.000 --> 20:44.000 We're doing it. 20:44.000 --> 20:47.000 We are not building what we were building. 20:47.000 --> 20:51.000 We are building applications that I used to do. 20:51.000 --> 20:58.000 And I think it's really important that digital infrastructure is from the public 20:59.000 --> 21:03.000 application should be in ownership and under control. 21:03.000 --> 21:05.000 But that's what the open source does, right? 21:05.000 --> 21:10.000 I think the ownership thing is a bit of a, like, the model, just like with Linux here, 21:10.000 --> 21:12.000 Linux going from all of us, right? 21:12.000 --> 21:14.000 The number of people who contribute to there is enormous. 21:14.000 --> 21:16.000 And they're all still on the part. 21:16.000 --> 21:19.000 If you contribute to next loud, we don't own your code. 21:19.000 --> 21:24.000 Next loud has no CLA, even our employees usually keep the copyright on their code. 21:24.000 --> 21:27.000 So that is a shared ownership model. 21:27.000 --> 21:34.000 And I think the open source model itself is better, in my opinion, than all they control. 21:34.000 --> 21:36.000 But let's continue the conversation. 21:36.000 --> 21:38.000 And that goes for all of you. 21:38.000 --> 21:40.000 This is a conversation. 21:40.000 --> 21:44.000 Because it's a pretty problem we have again, 360 billion that we need to move, 21:44.000 --> 21:49.000 going out of the EU to our economy and our businesses and maybe use some of it as savings 21:49.000 --> 21:53.000 because we can do better in a way more, be more efficient. 21:53.000 --> 21:54.000 That's it. 21:54.000 --> 21:55.000 Thank you all. 21:57.000 --> 22:00.000 Yes, please.