WEBVTT

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I'm going to talk about this here, but before that, I will give you some introduction by myself,

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not telling myself, just give you what kind of perspective I'm sharing fun.

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Okay, so I have a background in, I have a background in law, so I'm actually a model

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that I'm not a developer or tech people, but I enter in the tech industry 10 years ago,

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and then I went to the public sector and working on the tech.

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And now I'm in a NGO called the open structure foundation,

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and we are actually like, we are a legal entity of old Taiwanese open source communities,

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which means if they need to talk to the government and they need some government paperwork,

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they will come to us and we will support them as well.

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They won't get a grain of subsidy, this kind of things.

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And I will give you a clear understanding, like what this topic will be,

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slightly about government perspective, slightly about parliament perspective,

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and I was so slightly about community perspective,

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because actually I really have a complete background.

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Like I started with the marketing manager, so a little bit about industry,

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and then I went to a legislative union, become a legislative assistant,

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and this is actually our parliament, and I work on one of our legislature.

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And I have become a local government officer,

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during the COVID time, and mainly work with the community to actually come back to COVID.

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And one of my partners is we probably know about it,

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it's actually the one initiating the mask map in Taiwan.

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So one of the case, and I went to Molda Ministry of Digital Fair,

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and I actually responsible for implementing public code policy,

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and kind of drive it and plan it, and then I let's hear a laugh

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and went into open-scout your foundation.

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So always, I see myself like a spy, and a two-spaces spy.

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It's hard to say, like, which one I'm really for, community or government.

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But by this girl, that's why I can share actually different perspectives from two-side,

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and also let you know, like, what's really happening in Taiwan

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from both community perspective, and also go and message,

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as a whole, the battle neck, and try to kind of bring a breach to each other.

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So we will start a little bit about Taiwan,

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an episode history, it just gives you some ideas, and I will kind of fly through it,

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so we can talk more about the reality right now.

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So we pretty much start our open source culture,

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like different trends or developments since 1990s,

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so it's almost 40 years ago.

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Yeah, and it went up in those for sure, everything,

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and I actually put it into four different stages.

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So the first ten year will more like a Sikh stage.

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So people start milking about what open source is,

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as some people are talking about it, and they will come to early stage.

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A lot of things start for sports, and SO start developing,

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and we have a high expansion, and also kind of mature stage to 2020.

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But I have a sense right now, we're probably in the donned road,

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but I will share you later.

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And during the early stage, let's actually,

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when the Parliament first come in,

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like since 2020 is 2000, like,

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actually one of our academic institutions,

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in Taiwan, we already started studying open source,

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and helping to educate students about what open source is.

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So our miniature of education, even have courses about open source at a lot of time.

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So most of the young engineers, who people who started engineering,

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actually know a little bit about open source comes to that time.

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And probably because of this trend, in the next expansion stage,

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we have so many new community actually start coming up.

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Like, most of them as one is got zero, they use the concept of open source

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to solve all kinds of social issue.

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And also, we have a huge protects in 2014.

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It's also connected with the government role.

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Basically, we actually occupy our legislative.

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We occupy our parliament in 2014.

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And they kind of build our older digital infrastructure.

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So we can communicate with outside.

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Yeah. And other culture foundation also funded then.

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Because at that time, we become really strong.

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So they started to have their own roles.

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Sometimes, as a community, it's actually hard for people to find

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who's responsible authority.

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That's why all the community decide to fund it.

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Open culture foundation together.

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And that's why we're also community big up.

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And also, we even started a student information

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technology conference.

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We call it Sikha.

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Which this is actually forcing a younger generation.

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Because for in a former state, we're actually talking to college

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and university student.

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But let's say currently targeting on high school student.

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So actually, we got even, like, read it.

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Yeah.

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And then the culture and materials say, and, yeah.

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I'm sorry.

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Oh, I didn't understand.

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Okay.

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So at that time, I was just talking to myself.

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So at that time, you're probably already now, like,

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ODOTON actually can into the ministry.

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And really, as a time community,

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actually answer the governments.

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And a lot of people probably couldn't meet also

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until the government, like, trying to sell actually

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a lot of community voice actually get in.

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But the things really go well.

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Well, I showed you the press.

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So it's not so good.

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And I will tell you why.

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So in 2020, in 2020, 3, we actually have

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the public policy policy in Taiwan.

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And for, I guess most of you already know about public

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policy policy, but I was still differentiated with open source a little bit

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and tell you what's a different.

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So open source is now, I think, I'll be simple.

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Listen, by the way, it's like, you made a call.

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You show it all under the Southern Africa right?

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Public call is, and it's more like, in Dr.

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or community-based behavior.

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But when we have a public call, we actually target in

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government, which means government should actually open up

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their software code to the people.

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Because it's pretty much money.

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So supposedly people should own it.

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But not in the reality.

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Most of the time, like, you cannot really know what kind of

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algorithm is actually inside.

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A whole kind of software that actually using inside

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in the government.

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And that's why we like to kind of challenge it.

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So, at the time, we launched it.

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And we hope like in the non-sensitive software code,

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we'll be seeing a digital public goods.

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And also, like, you have like, universal assets,

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like public, secretary, NSL, make it share the community

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driven value, which means that we hope by opening up it,

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we're actually also open up creation from the public.

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You can now become part of it.

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Not just public service, it's a developer of the public

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software.

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All of the people can actually have a chance.

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So you can hear the old return.

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And we actually engage with the six biggest city in Taiwan

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to launch this policy.

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And what we will really do, the first that we actually

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have a data base, we code it code.gov.tw.

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So the, all those public software, all the government

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software is already, that is open up already.

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We'll be put up there.

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So you can easily find, like, if you want,

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you can go check it.

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And if you see certain kind of software is usable for you.

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Then you can just download it through GitHub.

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And let's just do whatever you want.

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And so you can also contribute back.

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And the other thing, we know, like, behind open source

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or public code, they cannot be just a vendor or just a people.

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There's a big community.

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There'll be an ecosystem.

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And we also want to make sure all this policy is still a

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really community base, a button up behavior policy.

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So we still work with the community.

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We, even, we actually annually will have different kind of

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software solution, co-out to the people.

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And you can actually develop it for a government.

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We will have grandfathered.

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And also if you recognize, then we'll use it.

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And also put it as a public code.

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And some of them will be showcased is actually showcasing

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the building K right now.

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So if you're interested, you can go visit later.

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And also for sure, we have involvement for the public

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7.

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Because you might can easily notice, like, there's probably

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a really new concept for a lot of people, especially

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public 7.

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So we have different courses or engagement with it.

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But have you ever had a question?

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I talked so many things about what we do with the public policy.

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Why we want to do it?

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Actually, there's three things that we talk about.

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Why is cost on?

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Because, like, Taiwanese government actually spend a lot

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of money, just like Europe, or join the EU policy

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summit yesterday.

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And I know, like, both of us spend a lot of money

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to certain countries, then to.

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Yeah.

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And actually, they're raising most of their fee right now.

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So that's the same we want to cost on.

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And the other thing is interoperability.

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So we want to make sure, yeah, like, this is Taiwanese

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sweet potato fries, but no matter is the American,

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Belgian, or French fries, usually look like this.

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We want to make sure everyone understanding

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can use it.

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Everything's connected.

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And also transparency.

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Because you may have noticed earlier,

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that we talked about garbage raw.

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Gov never comes from an open data.

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So already, the community have a really high openness

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sense.

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So we also want to go for transparency of all

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reasons.

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It's a sea of parts of over-government and diplomacy.

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But this street actually is not a lion.

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Yeah, so I have to tell you the ugly shoes.

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We don't really have a men purpose.

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We just kind of find it is really important.

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But we really haven't cut out a strong narrative,

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like, why is this important to implement it?

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And I will say, this is one reason why we actually fall.

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So I will make it fun.

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Well, this is one of the things we really like

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in Taiwan, the hot pot.

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We just put everything we like.

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Everything's possible inside the hot pot.

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And you just pick the one you like.

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So if I'm talking to someone like government,

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the democracy, I just talk about transparency.

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If I'm talking to someone who have no budget,

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I just talk about coastline.

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So that's how we do.

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It's flexible.

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But in the long run, it actually is not so healthy.

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Because it's just so when you contribute

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some conflict between different principles,

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it's actually so hard to let people know

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why you like to choose.

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Yeah, so this is one thing I share.

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And also we know like,

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now the day you live in the apartment,

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sometimes you encounter some neighbor.

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You don't really like.

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And things also happens with us.

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Yeah, so I hope I go and get Ben from coastline next year.

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I hope.

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Yeah, showing this picture,

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sometimes it can be so.

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And so I have to admit,

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70 issue, like,

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70 tech is also one of the narratives we are using right now.

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But this is work out really well.

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I would say probably no,

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because like when you actually use

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someone to attack this warrior,

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actually make people even harder to

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understand what open sources

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connected to,

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to like,

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military defense,

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national security.

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So sometimes it gets confusing.

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Like I think for sure,

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for a community like you guys,

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you can tell why.

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But for reality, for all the general public,

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it's actually a hot understanding concept.

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So this actually not so work out.

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And during all the speech,

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then you can find out actually,

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there's actually different narrative

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for different space,

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stage of the open source advocacy of Taiwan.

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At first,

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we actually started with intelligence,

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while it's some cool open source.

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Like it's something from Europe,

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so cool,

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no one knows about it,

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but I'm the one know about it.

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I was sure with you.

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Yeah.

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And they become a research and education target.

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And they become a community behavior.

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And during the maturetime,

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it became a transparency and collaboration.

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And it's like now we are working

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like we conclude,

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include all of things.

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But what we encounter is actually,

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right now we don't have

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a new narrative for a new age.

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I think that's why we are,

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what we're lacking right now,

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and also why we fail at this point.

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I'm also reflecting myself.

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And also,

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did you notice that there's really important things

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about open source?

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It's not showing this for narratives.

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And it's probably the most important.

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And Dr. Trey and a couple of economic.

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The thing,

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who's gonna pay for it,

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who's gonna develop talent for it,

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who's,

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and not to mention,

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we're asked to your government.

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Like why government want to push certain kind of things?

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If there's not about your national security,

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not sovereignty,

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usually it's about indoctrary economic.

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So why,

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like when we are doing public code,

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like we didn't include indoctrary economics,

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perspective.

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Okay, I will answer the first with

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a really high rocket answer.

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It's because it's different authority.

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Yeah, so in Ministry of Digital Fair,

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the one I used to work with

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is a department called,

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like, did democracy net war department?

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So we are,

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we can find some digital policy,

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but probably good.

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But when it comes to indoctrary economic,

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it's a non-agency.

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You can see here,

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a nutrition for digital indoctrary moda.

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Like actually agency on their moda,

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and we are just a tiny department on their moda.

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So it's all the different things.

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Let's still emphasize indoctrary economic,

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but we are not really

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connected, talking to each other.

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So when I do software indoctrary development,

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is for non-opensors,

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what?

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Menely.

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They talk a little about us,

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but not.

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So at least two is not combined.

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So it definitely affects a lot of things.

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But like this is just an organization,

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not usual.

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I think it happens in old country.

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But there's another fact.

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I think it's a different reason.

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So let's ask ourselves,

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that open source software,

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approach demonstration,

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like superior, economic,

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value for government and society.

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I know,

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probably most of you have a really strong idea,

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like saying, hey,

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if you open,

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develop open source indoctrary,

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they will be more a new layer of supply change,

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like focusing on open source.

15:12.000 --> 15:15.000
So it can be a new change for Taiwan or for indoctrary.

15:15.000 --> 15:17.000
They can make me money.

15:17.000 --> 15:19.000
And in the beginning,

15:19.000 --> 15:21.000
part is actually more,

15:21.000 --> 15:22.000
they can charge more,

15:22.000 --> 15:24.000
because they are actually

15:24.000 --> 15:26.000
customizing a different things.

15:26.000 --> 15:27.000
But why is it,

15:27.000 --> 15:29.000
especially Taiwan is a strong text,

15:29.000 --> 15:32.000
for some people is a strong text country.

15:32.000 --> 15:33.000
So why not?

15:33.000 --> 15:34.000
But in reality,

15:34.000 --> 15:36.000
we're actually strong in the hardware.

15:36.000 --> 15:38.000
We're not running a software.

15:38.000 --> 15:40.000
You probably OC this brand before,

15:40.000 --> 15:41.000
TSMC,

15:41.000 --> 15:44.000
like I guess most of your phone athletes,

15:44.000 --> 15:46.000
have to say that for that product.

15:46.000 --> 15:47.000
But the reality is,

15:47.000 --> 15:49.000
like TSMC is so strong.

15:49.000 --> 15:53.000
They can easily hire a lot of engineers,

15:53.000 --> 15:55.000
as much as money you can imagine.

15:55.000 --> 15:58.000
So we'll want to do this open source.

15:58.000 --> 16:00.000
We'll want to go to a company.

16:00.000 --> 16:04.000
They probably don't even want to go to the software industry.

16:04.000 --> 16:07.000
They will prefer to go to TSMC.

16:07.000 --> 16:09.000
They can make money easily.

16:09.000 --> 16:10.000
Probably not a good life,

16:10.000 --> 16:12.000
but still good.

16:13.000 --> 16:14.000
Generally speaking,

16:14.000 --> 16:16.000
compared to most of the European industry,

16:16.000 --> 16:17.000
we only have that software.

16:17.000 --> 16:18.000
Yeah.

16:18.000 --> 16:20.000
So let's look at the two sub and same coin.

16:20.000 --> 16:22.000
TSMC actually helping Taiwan sometimes,

16:22.000 --> 16:24.000
but sometimes it's still causing a problem.

16:24.000 --> 16:25.000
Yeah.

16:25.000 --> 16:27.000
And also,

16:27.000 --> 16:28.000
like in nowadays,

16:28.000 --> 16:29.000
we have a silver lining,

16:29.000 --> 16:33.000
like the growth in the Ministry of Digital Fair stop.

16:33.000 --> 16:35.000
But actually we have a silver lining right now.

16:35.000 --> 16:37.000
Open source culture condition is now working

16:37.000 --> 16:39.000
with Taipei City Government.

16:39.000 --> 16:41.000
And that really starting to shift

16:42.000 --> 16:44.000
all in some of their software,

16:44.000 --> 16:46.000
but you two use from Microsoft.

16:46.000 --> 16:48.000
Sorry, I shouldn't say that.

16:48.000 --> 16:50.000
Two open source.

16:50.000 --> 16:51.000
But why?

16:51.000 --> 16:53.000
Because open source,

16:53.000 --> 16:55.000
Microsoft is now raising the money.

16:55.000 --> 16:57.000
So in the money is too big this year.

16:57.000 --> 16:59.000
So they have to do it.

16:59.000 --> 17:00.000
So now right now,

17:00.000 --> 17:03.000
we actually ask by Lam to come up with

17:03.000 --> 17:05.000
a new principle and new policy for

17:05.000 --> 17:07.000
them to really apply

17:07.000 --> 17:09.000
to open source policy.

17:09.000 --> 17:11.000
Open source software.

17:11.000 --> 17:13.000
So we actually come up with a guidelines

17:13.000 --> 17:15.000
or I cannot show that you the real guideline.

17:15.000 --> 17:17.000
I just give you a graphic ideas.

17:17.000 --> 17:20.000
So like how can they do the software

17:20.000 --> 17:22.000
and inventory check to make sure

17:22.000 --> 17:24.000
what can understand their own need?

17:24.000 --> 17:27.000
And also know what kind of software they're having.

17:27.000 --> 17:29.000
And we have different guideline for

17:29.000 --> 17:32.000
different kind of open source software.

17:32.000 --> 17:33.000
Like,

17:34.000 --> 17:37.000
this is for server list on the virtualization.

17:37.000 --> 17:39.000
And each guideline will include different

17:39.000 --> 17:40.000
processes.

17:40.000 --> 17:42.000
How do you do assessment on yourself?

17:42.000 --> 17:43.000
And also,

17:43.000 --> 17:44.000
how can you make sure your

17:44.000 --> 17:46.000
transition strategy is proper?

17:46.000 --> 17:47.000
And also,

17:47.000 --> 17:48.000
how can you include

17:48.000 --> 17:49.000
operation and maintenance

17:49.000 --> 17:50.000
rejection?

17:50.000 --> 17:51.000
So this is,

17:51.000 --> 17:53.000
I will consider right now the

17:53.000 --> 17:56.000
currently the final hope of

17:56.000 --> 17:58.000
final state to apply open source

17:58.000 --> 18:00.000
or probably code entire

18:01.000 --> 18:02.000
government.

18:02.000 --> 18:04.000
So now we talk about

18:04.000 --> 18:05.000
feature.

18:05.000 --> 18:07.000
Right now we can see the trend

18:07.000 --> 18:08.000
like just like Europe.

18:08.000 --> 18:10.000
70 and resilient is still the best way to

18:10.000 --> 18:12.000
talk about public code and public money.

18:12.000 --> 18:14.000
Despite the onsite,

18:14.000 --> 18:16.000
I've shared about.

18:16.000 --> 18:18.000
But it's on a trend.

18:18.000 --> 18:20.000
So it's easier for us to talk.

18:20.000 --> 18:21.000
So we still use it.

18:21.000 --> 18:22.000
Sorry.

18:22.000 --> 18:23.000
Yeah, just like a couple of ideas.

18:23.000 --> 18:24.000
Yeah.

18:24.000 --> 18:27.000
But we have to fight different

18:28.000 --> 18:30.000
reality and also ask of self.

18:30.000 --> 18:32.000
Some question during

18:32.000 --> 18:35.000
while we are doing this advocacy.

18:35.000 --> 18:38.000
How do you define non-sensitive software?

18:38.000 --> 18:40.000
For a government?

18:40.000 --> 18:42.000
Because you know,

18:42.000 --> 18:44.000
now the software is so complicated.

18:44.000 --> 18:45.000
All the component,

18:45.000 --> 18:47.000
I don't think you know exactly

18:47.000 --> 18:50.000
every component of your own software

18:50.000 --> 18:51.000
to be honest.

18:51.000 --> 18:52.000
That way, the component,

18:52.000 --> 18:53.000
all the copyright.

18:53.000 --> 18:55.000
So the first thing is about a legal issue.

18:55.000 --> 18:56.000
It's about a reality.

18:56.000 --> 18:58.000
It was if someone attacked you.

18:58.000 --> 19:00.000
So what I'm showing is something happened

19:00.000 --> 19:03.000
before in 2022 or 23.

19:03.000 --> 19:06.000
American, some important American lady

19:06.000 --> 19:09.000
come visit Taiwan and suddenly

19:09.000 --> 19:11.000
they hack a lot of different things

19:11.000 --> 19:12.000
in Taiwan.

19:12.000 --> 19:14.000
This is actually just a no more

19:14.000 --> 19:17.000
display board of our railway station.

19:17.000 --> 19:19.000
Usually used for simple advice on

19:19.000 --> 19:20.000
her things.

19:20.000 --> 19:22.000
But let's take it and put something like

19:22.000 --> 19:23.000
against us.

19:23.000 --> 19:26.000
Is that considered a non-sensitive software?

19:26.000 --> 19:28.000
Or is it sensitive software?

19:28.000 --> 19:30.000
Is it a national security?

19:30.000 --> 19:32.000
Or is it not sensitive security?

19:32.000 --> 19:34.000
So when you are using 70,

19:34.000 --> 19:36.000
how do you differentiate this?

19:36.000 --> 19:37.000
And also,

19:37.000 --> 19:38.000
we are talking about 70,

19:38.000 --> 19:40.000
and also you are talking about open stories

19:40.000 --> 19:41.000
really politic.

19:41.000 --> 19:43.000
And also,

19:43.000 --> 19:47.000
it's connected to the digital democracy.

19:47.000 --> 19:49.000
But what kind of organization model

19:49.000 --> 19:51.000
and legal framework of a government

19:51.000 --> 19:53.000
and a public good?

19:53.000 --> 19:54.000
Yeah.

19:54.000 --> 19:55.000
For example,

19:55.000 --> 19:58.000
we all know about procurement.

19:58.000 --> 20:00.000
So do you think the one in charge of

20:00.000 --> 20:02.000
procurement in government

20:02.000 --> 20:05.000
is actually a developer?

20:05.000 --> 20:06.000
Not really,

20:06.000 --> 20:07.000
most of the time now.

20:07.000 --> 20:09.000
And what even though he is a developer,

20:09.000 --> 20:10.000
in his role,

20:10.000 --> 20:13.000
what's most important is project manager.

20:13.000 --> 20:15.000
It's not really about doing the tech.

20:15.000 --> 20:18.000
But if you want to make sure your code is so safe,

20:18.000 --> 20:19.000
at some point,

20:19.000 --> 20:21.000
it also not need to know about detail.

20:21.000 --> 20:24.000
Like, how can you make sure everything goes right?

20:24.000 --> 20:27.000
I'm not sure how many public servants

20:27.000 --> 20:30.000
are one or actually can do it to be honest.

20:30.000 --> 20:31.000
Like,

20:31.000 --> 20:33.000
and you have so many public servants

20:33.000 --> 20:35.000
to do that in one single government.

20:35.000 --> 20:37.000
That's actually the things to talk about.

20:37.000 --> 20:38.000
Not to mention,

20:38.000 --> 20:40.000
do you have enough confidence for your government

20:40.000 --> 20:41.000
to do that kind of things?

20:41.000 --> 20:42.000
Yeah.

20:42.000 --> 20:43.000
They open up the algorithm,

20:43.000 --> 20:45.000
but how can you make sure all that everything?

20:45.000 --> 20:46.000
Yeah.

20:47.000 --> 20:48.000
Especially right now,

20:48.000 --> 20:50.000
we all know we are on dirt,

20:50.000 --> 20:51.000
a really,

20:51.000 --> 20:52.000
and strong,

20:52.000 --> 20:53.000
like,

20:53.000 --> 20:54.000
political climate change

20:54.000 --> 20:55.000
around the world.

20:55.000 --> 20:56.000
And not to mention,

20:56.000 --> 20:58.000
and some already brought it up

20:58.000 --> 21:00.000
in last yesterday's EU policy,

21:00.000 --> 21:01.000
some weeks.

21:01.000 --> 21:04.000
Opens are supposed to be a global movement,

21:04.000 --> 21:06.000
but now they were talking about sovereignty.

21:06.000 --> 21:08.000
And we have to face it.

21:08.000 --> 21:10.000
Some of these actually about nationality.

21:10.000 --> 21:11.000
And we're also doing the same thing,

21:11.000 --> 21:13.000
because I just share our neighbors' photo

21:14.000 --> 21:15.000
that are all black.

21:15.000 --> 21:16.000
So, not just you guys,

21:16.000 --> 21:18.000
we're also reflecting like open source

21:18.000 --> 21:19.000
and nationality.

21:19.000 --> 21:21.000
I really kind of shifting things back.

21:21.000 --> 21:22.000
What?

21:22.000 --> 21:23.000
Not open us anymore.

21:23.000 --> 21:24.000
So, I think there's something

21:24.000 --> 21:26.000
that we can reflect both

21:26.000 --> 21:27.000
in Taiwan and EU,

21:27.000 --> 21:28.000
because I really find that now

21:28.000 --> 21:29.000
we are in a STEM stage.

21:29.000 --> 21:30.000
So, thank you so much.

21:30.000 --> 21:32.000
I'm open up to all kinds of questions

21:32.000 --> 21:33.000
and help you like it's all.

21:33.000 --> 21:34.000
Thank you.

21:35.000 --> 21:36.000
Thank you.

21:42.000 --> 21:43.000
Hi.

21:43.000 --> 21:44.000
Great talk.

21:44.000 --> 21:45.000
Thank you.

21:45.000 --> 21:47.000
You were talking about

21:47.000 --> 21:48.000
one of those specific things,

21:48.000 --> 21:51.000
grants for writing open source code.

21:51.000 --> 21:53.000
And I was wondering if you could say

21:53.000 --> 21:55.000
a little bit more about those grants.

21:55.000 --> 21:57.000
And if it's easier than,

21:57.000 --> 22:00.000
say, hiring an agency to write open source code

22:00.000 --> 22:02.000
or like hiring a big tack on

22:02.000 --> 22:03.000
for need to write open source code.

22:03.000 --> 22:04.000
Are the grants good?

22:04.000 --> 22:05.000
Are they working?

22:05.000 --> 22:06.000
Yeah.

22:06.000 --> 22:08.000
Okay.

22:08.000 --> 22:09.000
Okay.

22:09.000 --> 22:10.000
So, sure.

22:10.000 --> 22:11.000
Okay.

22:11.000 --> 22:12.000
They all answer us.

22:12.000 --> 22:14.000
I have to meet like letting community

22:14.000 --> 22:17.000
to solve the software problem of

22:17.000 --> 22:19.000
the government is actually

22:19.000 --> 22:21.000
definitely much, much, much harder than

22:21.000 --> 22:23.000
hiring a company to do procurement.

22:23.000 --> 22:25.000
Because like, to be honest,

22:25.000 --> 22:26.000
like, is it a procurement?

22:26.000 --> 22:27.000
So, it's a country.

22:27.000 --> 22:28.000
You do what you do.

22:28.000 --> 22:29.000
But when it comes to community,

22:29.000 --> 22:31.000
like, we're all coming to members.

22:31.000 --> 22:32.000
Sometimes we have different value

22:32.000 --> 22:33.000
and different things.

22:33.000 --> 22:34.000
So, you need to communicate.

22:34.000 --> 22:36.000
But what we think is important is because,

22:36.000 --> 22:37.000
like, during that time,

22:37.000 --> 22:40.000
you will actually go through a culture,

22:40.000 --> 22:41.000
shock or culture transition.

22:41.000 --> 22:43.000
You actually understand each other.

22:43.000 --> 22:45.000
You also have public servant to know about

22:45.000 --> 22:47.000
the tech war and also about democracy and

22:47.000 --> 22:48.000
as a value of public code more.

22:48.000 --> 22:49.000
So, we're still valued.

22:49.000 --> 22:50.000
That's it.

22:50.000 --> 22:51.000
It's hard to scale.

22:51.000 --> 22:52.000
I have to do the make.

22:52.000 --> 22:53.000
Yeah.

22:53.000 --> 22:55.000
Just a quick question.

22:55.000 --> 22:59.000
How do you combat like informal and blatant

22:59.000 --> 23:01.000
corruption from the companies that

23:01.000 --> 23:03.000
are losing money?

23:03.000 --> 23:04.000
Like, I don't know.

23:04.000 --> 23:06.000
I'm sure that Microsoft, sorry.

23:06.000 --> 23:08.000
The not company done to me named has a lot of money

23:08.000 --> 23:13.000
to just spend on policies and other stuff like that.

23:13.000 --> 23:17.000
I also have to export to answer it.

23:17.000 --> 23:18.000
Yeah, for sure.

23:18.000 --> 23:21.000
But because I think it's another specific area.

23:21.000 --> 23:23.000
But I would say, like, now a day,

23:23.000 --> 23:25.000
I've been really afraid about it.

23:25.000 --> 23:27.000
Like, now a day, our procurement act

23:27.000 --> 23:29.000
is actually super strict.

23:30.000 --> 23:32.000
If you are a healthy enterprise,

23:32.000 --> 23:35.000
I don't think you would want to go to a procurement.

23:35.000 --> 23:37.000
So, I mean, for having me healthy,

23:37.000 --> 23:38.000
you're earning money very well.

23:38.000 --> 23:40.000
Like, you don't need to go to the community.

23:40.000 --> 23:42.000
I don't think actually government procurement

23:42.000 --> 23:44.000
at this point is the best choice.

23:44.000 --> 23:47.000
So, at a organizing, it reduces the situation like you ask.

23:47.000 --> 23:48.000
Yeah.

23:48.000 --> 23:50.000
But, like, for sure, it seems to still happen.

23:50.000 --> 23:53.000
But right now, we are still mainly focusing on,

23:53.000 --> 23:57.000
like, how all the security check

23:57.000 --> 23:59.000
based on criminal cumin.

23:59.000 --> 24:00.000
Yeah.

24:00.000 --> 24:01.000
So, thank you very much.

24:01.000 --> 24:04.000
Please join me in the big round of applause for Zalin.

24:04.000 --> 24:05.000
Thank you.

24:05.000 --> 24:06.000
Thank you.

24:06.000 --> 24:07.000
Thank you so much.